Economy v. Creative

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Economy v. Creative

Post by vampiresfire on 4/20/2012, 6:57 pm

With limited participation, money hoarding and stagnate prices the economy is not in an ideal place right now. The reason this has occurred is because of the rank entitlement system we have established on Oasis. Supply and Demand are the controlling factors in any economy. Demand is influenced by the usage for the product and the effort expended while obtaining the product. Supply is determined by the amount of product on the market and the amount of product which can be obtained. In Minecraft there is only one limiting factor to supply which is time; that is to say with infinite time a person could obtain infinite product meaning prices on oasis are ideally determined by the combination of demand and the time spent to meet the demand. This is not the case due to the distortions we have introduced into the market in an effort to improve the market.

Case in point, the admin ore shop which buys and sells infinite ore at a set price with no relation to the effort has required to obtain the product; the prices are just random. This in term causes distortions throughout the rest of the economy with the players estimating how difficult a given item is to obtain in relation to say a diamond thereby setting their prices based on a false metric. Even if the admin ore shop prices were calculated correctly it would still be a non-ideal system because the prices would be stagnant. If Oasis is to have an adminshop it is important it only sells or buys unobtainable items to avoid the aforementioned distortions within the economy.

Rank entitlements such as the /kit system were created as a motivational tool to get players to want to be promoted and eventually aid in the promotion of new staff members. However, the foundational ideal behind the system is players will not want to seek rank unless they have a physical reward that comes with the rank which has manifested itself as /kits. The idea of giving players a physical reward to go along with the innate prestige of rank is not necessarily negative on its own but an infinite reward such as /kit does have negative effects on the economy. This is because with each progressive kit made available the items contained within the kit are made worthless to that player by virtue of the item being infinite. By the time a player achieves membership iron is already greatly devalued because the primary use for iron is iron tools and the other uses are largely esoteric. The same is true for all other kits granted at other ranks. In order to have a vibrant economy the kit system must be removed.

Of course this removal of kits creates a unique problem for the donator ranks as they paid real money for the privilege of being removed from the economy to varying degrees. This is why it would be most simple for donators to voluntarily give up their /kit privileges or refrain from participation in affected areas of the economy; for example a donator with a given kit would not be allowed to sell the item contained with the kit so as to avoid further market distortion.

Concerning Veteran and architects creative and /I these abilities also cause distortional but do the small number of them they would be allowed to retain these things within an idealized economy with the stipulation they do not sell any items from these abilities. It would of course be preferable if everyone participated within the economy but it is presumed these players have earned the right to exist outside of the economy.

The aforementioned changed are rather large and perhaps even distasteful to members of the community but they are needed to create an ideal economy. In short the question is if this server is more creative focused or more survival focused. Needless to say if we are creative focused the economy will suffer just as any players who want a survival economy will also suffer.

Also relating to the iron issue i also think the vote reward should be an amount of coins instead of 30 iron ignots. (i forgot to put that in there hence the edit)

Thanks for your time,
Vampiresfire


Last edited by vampiresfire on 4/20/2012, 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Economy v. Creative

Post by dtfgator on 4/20/2012, 7:09 pm

I just skimmed what you wrote, please include a TL;DR in the future; I don't want to sound rude, but most people won't read that whole thing. (Although you did break it into paragraphs rather than a massive block of text, kudos to you for that).

We have had these problems many times before, since the server was created in September of 2010. There is honestly no good solution to the problem. Every time we have had a completely open economy and no admin shop, a "megamart" is simply established, where 3-4 players control all trade in the server by supplying everything anyone could want. Attempts to open competing shops inevitably fail due to the monopoly of a single store.

/i and /kit are non-issues, it is explicitly banned in the rules for anyone to sell any spawned item, ever. If you know anyone who is selling or has in the past sold spawned items, please report them to the staff immediately.

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Re: Economy v. Creative

Post by dtfgator on 4/20/2012, 7:28 pm

Now that I have actually read your whole speech, I'm going to say some other things about /kit and /i.

I agree with you on your point that /kit completely devalues the tools it is able to spawn, but think about what tools that actually is. Stone tools are already worthless, and it's not like there is a particularly lucrative stone-tool market anyways, so /kit stonekit is irrelevant.

Now to /ironkit. Yes, iron tools are devalued by the ability for most players to spawn them, but I (as well as most of the staff) believe that the easy access to infinite tools acts as a great catalyst for the creation of large-scale building projects. This is a survival server, but sexy buildings are important to us. Minecraft should be, above all else, really an outlet for creativity. The staff does not want to stifle creativity, and prevent someone from building a kickass castle, just because players do not want to waste 30 iron ingots on the 10 iron pickaxes required to mine the stone to build the castle. Iron ore itself is also extremely common, so just like stone tools, even without the ironkit I do not believe iron tools would become a particularly lucrative economic venture. They are simply not durable enough to justify being bought rather than made yourself.

I could understand your problem with toolkits if they included /diamondkit, because diamonds and diamond tools ARE durable and present an excellent bartering tool and economic standard. Just as the US previously had a gold standard, we at oasis for a long time had essentially a diamond standard. Way back when in the days of 2010/early 2011, a diamond was worth exactly 100 coins, and it served as a good way to exchange wealth. However, diamondkit is reserved for veterans only, and they have /i, making it effectively useless and nonexistant. At the point that a player is able to spawn diamond tools, they can spawn anything and so are expected to take a back-seat in the economy.

That brings me to /item. The only players given access to this coveted command are veterans, 50$+ donators, and staff (architects are just staff without /kick and /ban). Staff are of course supposed to keep the server running smoothly, and while many of them (most of them, actually) are insanely creative and often create badass things, they rarely play an active role the player economy, unless that role is settling disputes.

On that topic, the only non-staff players with access to /item are such a minority that it really shouldn't matter. They are forbidden to buy or sell spawned items, and generally keep to their own projects due to their ability to spawn. They usually do not participate in buying/selling items, if only because with their ability to spawn items it is just too much of a hassle to confirm what has been spawned and what is "legit".

Finally, we get to the "admin shop". I happen to agree with you on this point, I have always believed the staff-shop should only sell unobtainable items and not ores. However, the reason for selling these items is purely because – sit down, this might blow your mind – people have asked for it in the past. If we were to remove the admin shop, some people would bitch about it, and others (like you and me), would rejoice. It's not a battle that can be won, because roughly half of the server is always unhappy about it.



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Re: Economy v. Creative

Post by dylstrosity2 on 4/20/2012, 8:04 pm

I was kind enough to read this whole thing, And as for the kits, Make them only eligable every hour instead of 10 seconds, I remember when i first joined, I was spaming the pvpkit for arrows, If the kit was obtainable every hour then it would reduce the gain of it greatly.

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Re: Economy v. Creative

Post by vampiresfire on 4/20/2012, 8:18 pm

First of all we both agree on the issue of /i and creative on Oasis.

And concerning kits with special focus on iron kit its not important weather or not it is something you can make a ton of money doing its important people have the ability to buy and sell at a mutually agreed upon price. you agree with me that the kit devalues the materials and also agree the materials are easy to find. Based on this mutual agreement i assert you also agree the removal of the kit would not stifle creativity given the other materials they will use in this theoretical build have to be mined as well. We however disagree on the issue of how lucrative the ore market could be given it is the primary thing people go mine for i think its a keystone element of our economy. Furthermore as you stated it has always been this way and the econ has always been less than ideal.

Concerning the fact people have asked for stuff like kits, adminshops, OP and creative dose not mean we need to give it them especially if it is of detriment to Survival players on the survival server.

Also i do not know what tldr means but this is not a post where some random person will be able to contribute anything beyond their desire for a survival focus or creative focus and if they can they probably are also interested enough to read the post.

Its very easy to disagree with me and its ok if any1 does but the question is essentially the same and that is basically the question of which is more important survival or creative on Oasis. given you agree creative elements such as /kit are bad for the econ which is inherently survival you simple think creative is more important than survival on oasis.

Thanks for your time,
Vampiresfire



Last edited by vampiresfire on 4/20/2012, 8:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Economy v. Creative

Post by vampiresfire on 4/20/2012, 8:22 pm

dylstrosity2 wrote:I was kind enough to read this whole thing, And as for the kits, Make them only eligable every hour instead of 10 seconds, I remember when i first joined, I was spaming the pvpkit for arrows, If the kit was obtainable every hour then it would reduce the gain of it greatly.

That would be ideal but when i suggested it certain staff members pointed out to me it would be very easy to bypass just by reloging. if it could be done in a way so it could not be bypassed then by virtue of the time it takes to earn the /kit it could be made part of the econ without introducing as large of a distortion.

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Re: Economy v. Creative

Post by Leagle on 4/20/2012, 8:33 pm

Ok it's quite late now and i'm very tired...
Still, i got trough the whole story.

And you know what, all i see is you trying to get rid of /kit and trying to split shit up.
(oh and of course the whole cute story around it.)

This is not going to happen.
I don't care if this was well-intended or not.
I've been looking back at some of your posts simular to this, and you're up to something.
All i'm saying is this,
Stop this nonsence right now, or you're only going to make it worse for yourself.

Other then that.
The system we're running right now has been developed over the many months,
and we are trying to make it fun for the players. So the players can have the best experience here.

Some people choose to go and play survival.
Some choose to get higher ranks.
And even though this is a survival server, people also still choose to be very creative in the wilderniss.

Some people who come by the server have some good qualities, like: unique builder, good at making replicas in minecraft of stuff, Huge builder, Good orginizer, Great interior designer, awesome with redstone, yada yada yada...
These people should not go unnoticed, Therefor we promote them.
And with this promotion they will be given acces to kit's.
These kits are there to support you in getting some materials much easier, wich would normally take you alot of time to get.
Just so you can make better progress at what you like to do.

If we didn't have kits combined with the ranks in the first place, then i honestly think oasis wouldn't be as succesfull as it is now.


Last edited by Leagle93 on 4/20/2012, 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Economy v. Creative

Post by ExtraSauce on 4/20/2012, 8:34 pm

Oh God what

The fuck is happening.

I don't know.

Someone help me.

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Re: Economy v. Creative

Post by Nova042 on 4/20/2012, 8:55 pm

Leagle93 wrote:Some people who come by the server have some good qualities, like: unique builder, good at making replicas in minecraft of stuff, Huge builder, Good orginizer, Great interior designer, awesome with redstone, yada yada yada...

What if you are all of the above?

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Re: Economy v. Creative

Post by Leagle on 4/20/2012, 8:58 pm

Nova042 wrote:
Leagle93 wrote:Some people who come by the server have some good qualities, like: unique builder, good at making replicas in minecraft of stuff, Huge builder, Good orginizer, Great interior designer, awesome with redstone, yada yada yada...

What if you are all of the above?
Architect

You'll first need to prove yourself though.

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@leagle

Post by vampiresfire on 4/20/2012, 8:59 pm

"Stop this nonsence right now, or you're only going to make it worse for yourself."

that is a little vague but let me make myself perfectly clear. I understand based on your post you do not like the opinion i expressed in this post and that is fine. My opinion is not something i just pulled out of my ass and it is not subject to change based on how many people disagree with me or give me veiled threats like the one above. Now if some1 disagrees with me and provides a logical counter argument like "here at Oasis we understand these elements harm the econ but the elements themselves are also quite valuable to us" or finds a flaw within my own argument as a logical person i must either rework my ideas to address that issue or accept it is not a priority.

You know leagle i respect you and i understand you said you are tired and there is always the chance i did not understand what you meant to communicate. If Oasis is the kind of place a person is punished for having an opinion well that is disgusting and offends my sensibilities as an intellectual. In short i hope i misunderstood or that you made a mistake due to being tired but if neither of those is true i should simply be banned for when i see something i think could be better i am going to talk about it and try my damnedest to be an instrument of positive change.

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Re: Economy v. Creative

Post by ExtraSauce on 4/20/2012, 9:02 pm

I'm just going to leave my note,

I agree with both, but Vamp, you know, the server isn't yours, everything is up to staff decide, if they think that's better for the server, they will most likely put it in, i agree with you putting out your opinions and stuff, but you might are doing some things staff does not like, that is decide what's better for the server.


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Re: Economy v. Creative

Post by vampiresfire on 4/20/2012, 9:09 pm

Extra you are 100% correct its up to the staff at the end of the day. I will respect what they decide regardless of what it is they decide to do. However, as is the case here i saw something that i thought could be improved and decided it would be worthwhile to discuss my thoughts on our economy just as i have done on several other occasions with things like the rules the only difference is this time around everyone dose not agree with me which is fine with me as people are entitled to their thoughts.

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Re: Economy v. Creative

Post by madscientist032 on 4/20/2012, 9:40 pm

I like Oasis the way it is. If we change our current system then Oasis will no longer the the Oasis it used to be.

Basically, a different oasis would not be as fun as the original Oasis.

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Re: Economy v. Creative

Post by mickdude2 on 4/21/2012, 2:25 pm

Minecraft is not real life. In real life, money is the most important thing. In minecraft, the most important thing is building/having fun. If people really wanted money, it's not that hard to get it. I went from fifty cents to 16000 coins in one map(about one month). But for those of us who really want to build, then /kits are the way to go. Plus, /diamond kits are only available to staff or donators, so other people still have to pay or make their own diamond tools. All in all, the economy is alright.

By the way, I read the entire post Smile. My eyes nearly burned out of their sockets, but i did it.

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Re: Economy v. Creative

Post by dynamole on 4/21/2012, 2:55 pm

In RL there are loads of things more important the money.

sure, it is needed to do pretty much everything these days, but there are still things more important then it.

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