Admin shop discussion

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Admin shop discussion

Post by Linkinparkey on 10/5/2012, 5:53 am

Is the admin shop open for debate? 'Cause I believe there's a lot of disagreements, whether or not there should be an adminshop and if the prices are unbalanced

My own thoughts:
I would love an intirely playerun economy, where people would find out the prices of items themselves. However, seeing as some people will most likely just hold on to whatever money they get, there's a risk that the economy will come to a hold, and people simply trade items for other items, since they can't get anymore money.

Because of this, I think it would be best to have an admin shop of some kind. However, it should only sell one item, and let the community figure out the rest from there. I suggest that the admin shop only deals with iron ingots, seeing as it's somewhat easy to find, and it's easy to compare it's value to other items.

In addition to this, the admin shop could sell items that can't be obtained with any legit means.

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Re: Admin shop discussion

Post by niki2__8 on 10/5/2012, 8:29 am

Yes I think so too! Link has good ideas!

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Re: Admin shop discussion

Post by InvertPanda on 10/5/2012, 8:48 am

We've heard the request for a player based economy many, many times. We've also tried it I know at least once before. It tanked, and it tanked fast.

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Re: Admin shop discussion

Post by Roboterlein on 10/5/2012, 9:24 am

An admin shop that's used for anything other than selling normally unobtainable items is detrimental to the economy.

Economics runs, on its most basic level, off of supply and demand. Through an organic flow of supply and demand, the constantly changing needs of the citizen vs the readily available/obtainable assets is reflected by the cost of assets in shops. Lots of an asset are available and people want them, prices begin to fall. An item is rarely available and people want them, the prices begin to rise.

What if those prices didn't change or reflect supply and demand?

If prices do not reflect the organic flow of supply and demand, the economy fails because items that are in high demand never change price and supply runs out too quickly. Items that are in low demand are never purchased because prices are ridiculously high. It becomes cheaper, through opportunity cost, for citizens to acquire items by their own means, rather than purchase them.

Now, how does this apply to Admin Shop?

Admin shop never changes. Sure, every once in a while, someone on Staff may change the prices, but not consistently enough to reflect supply and demand. Furthermore, its stock is unlimited. Consider Wal-Mart; its stock is practically unlimited and highly varied, its prices are lower than competitors', and it has a tendency to destroy small business competition. Imagine if Wal-mart belonged to our government, and they were destroying little Mom-and-Pop stores left and right. We'd never have it!

Admin shops that do anything other than sell unobtainable items (at a price that reflects the unobtainable item's value according to supply and demand) are destroying small citizen-owned shops who, frankly, cannot compete. That, my friends, becomes an anti-trust problem and a government-run monopoly has begun!

I will also argue that the same thing applies to large "mega-mart" type citizen-owned shops. They should be banned! Please, let me know if you disagree.

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Re: Admin shop discussion

Post by ChaosTheoryJRH on 10/5/2012, 9:41 am

Roboterlein wrote:
Admin shop never changes.

Because of this line, I read the rest of your post in 3 Dog's voice:

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Re: Admin shop discussion

Post by Roboterlein on 10/5/2012, 9:54 am

That's epic, man.

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RE

Post by Revilo410 on 10/5/2012, 11:11 am

IMO Admin shop is very useful for lower ranked players with un-biased prices and tends to be kept well up to date with stocks etc, but i would keep the creative only items in at and maybe the basic minerals such as diamond and gold.

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my thoughts

Post by OsgaTharp on 10/5/2012, 12:17 pm

I am making this because there has been a lot of discussion about the admin shop and what to do with the current economy. First off, Id like to stress that I'm not economist major nor am I going to pretend I am. Ive put a lot of thought into this and I'd like some feedback. Ive narrowed what could be done into five major possibilities.

1. Bring back Admin Shop
Pros: People make more money
Little to no work
Cons: Further Bloats the economy
No consumer control

2. No Admin Shop
Pros: Consumer Control
Cons: Current rich players have a hold on the economy. This involves undercutting and monopolizing.

3. Coin reset and Admin Shop
Pros: Just like the good ol' days. People race to the top and being the best is within reach of the common player.
Time to alter admin shop prices. (With mcmmo, the drop of diamonds and ores has been raised and should be taken into consideration.)
Cons: Just delaying the current problem. We will be back here in a few months.
Upset people due to their lose of money.

4. Coin reset and No Admin Shop
Pros: Consumer control
The common player can be at the top
Cons: How do we have a flow of coins to allow people to have money?

5. Coin reset, No admin shop, Money insertion by Core shops
--Before I get to the pros and cons I would like to explain what I mean with the Core shops. As seen by the cons of the coin reset and no admin shops, we have no way to keep a flow of money to the players in the server. The core shops would be almost like an admin shop but owned by a player or staff. He or she would have maybe 100,000 coins and would make a shop to compete with other core shop owners. They dont compete to make money, but to have checks and balences on each other. They will not have the goal to make money, but to adjust their prices so the economy doesnt go downhill. The flaw with the admin shop is that its infinate money, no control. With this system, staff could assign a certain amount of money that the server will have. (If theres any questions then ask me about this!)

Pros: Control over money
Selling spawned items can be detected
Still allows consumers to make their own shops to compete with the core shops (If they can have the coin upkeep to maintain it)

Cons: Depends on the lack of greed of core shop owners
Time to set up
New idea and may have holes in the system

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Re: Admin shop discussion

Post by Linkinparkey on 10/5/2012, 12:49 pm

Osgatharp wrote:5. Coin reset, No admin shop, Money insertion by Core shops

I'm not sure how this will work. So the core shop owners are basicly normal shop owners, but with a lot of money on them from the beginning? I see a lot of problems with this.

1. Who will be chosen to be the core shop owners? If the items sold from the shop are legit items, I doubt staff will have time to gather stuff themselves, being busy with being staff and such. So what players should be chosen to be core staff owners?

2. How do you want the core owners to set their prices? Should they simply set them up in a way that they find fair? Seeing as they are pretty much responsible for the intire economy, they can't just recklessly set up prices. Also, what do u mean by "have checks and balances on each other"? I could understand this if making money was the driving force behind the prices, but if the shop owners aren't supposed to make money, what determines whether a price is better than the other?

3. How does making playerowned shops detect the sale of spawned items? If u just mean that the owner can see that 1 day their diamond chest is filled with diamonds, what can anyone do about it?

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Re: Admin shop discussion

Post by OsgaTharp on 10/5/2012, 2:17 pm

1. The people chosen will have to be the most trusted and economically wise on the server. When it comes to attaining those items, it isnt the main concern because it its treated like an admin shop the majority of the time it will be sells, but they will have to get legit materials. All staff could personally try to help the shop and it could give them something to do if they want to help the economy.

2. The price is really up to the owners. If we are starting with a clean slate then they could just honestly decide based on rarity. The checks and balances portion of it is so that one shop owner cannot dive the economy because the other owner could see it and have it stopped by: telling staff, personally buying them out of the position, or shutting the persons shop down.

3. Now with player owned shops when an item is sold it is put inside of your chest and it has a limit to how much space it can hold. With the admin shops it had no limit. So if the owner was to come on and see their chest is filled with 50 stacks of diamonds they can ask a staff member to check if the item is spawned. Selling spawned items is against the rules and it should be treated that way

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Re: Admin shop discussion

Post by OsgaTharp on 10/5/2012, 2:22 pm

In all honesty the core shop is just an idea to limit the amount of money that is put into the server. The checks and balances thing is just safety thing. I was told by invertpanda that the admin shop doesnt have a method of limiting so I thought of this idea

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Re: Admin shop discussion

Post by mickdude2 on 10/5/2012, 3:37 pm

An economy is a hard thing to run. Nobody knows this better than the US government. While I don't have much authority on this, I might as well put my two cents in because I am a member of this community and government should be run by the people for the people.

First off, The oasis economy is a little harder to crash than a regular economy because every player that comes into oasis gets 30 coins that were pulled from nowhere, admin shops could pull coins from nowhere, and people could spawn a pickax for zero cost, mine iron for no cost, and then sell that for a 100% profit.

The problem arises with the separation between the very rich and the very poor. I personally have about 20,000 coins right now and I know people have even more. Which means that I have more buying power in terms of how much I can buy. The more i can buy, the more I can sell. For example, Let's say someone saved up 150 coins. They could buy three diamonds at current price and make a pickax. Every diamond pick can mine 1562 blocks, approx. So that person can mine out 1562 blocks worth. With my money, however, I could make 133.33 picks (133 picks with one diamond left over) that means that I have a total of 201148 blocks. The more money someone has, the more money they can pump into their budget for tools. Thus someone who has more money could hypothetically work more efficient.

Another problem is hoarders. The people who sell a lot but don't buy. They take all this money out of the economy, but don't pump any back in. Or the people that had a large sum of money, who got banned. That money disappears forever.

In my mind, the cure for this is to promote spending. Promote charity. Promote things that people want to spend money on. Towns are one way, but that just means the money gets pushed off to someone else who might hoard it. WE need a way for everyone to have to spend money on something in order to get what they need. For example, a bread and meat store. Kind of like admin shop except all they do is sell food and just sell. That would be something that people would spend money on, and would keep spending money.

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Re: Admin shop discussion

Post by Linkinparkey on 10/5/2012, 5:33 pm

mickdude2 wrote:In my mind, the cure for this is to promote spending.
Promote charity. Promote things that people want to spend money on.
Towns are one way, but that just means the money gets pushed off to
someone else who might hoard it. WE need a way for everyone to have to
spend money on something in order to get what they need. For example, a
bread and meat store. Kind of like admin shop except all they do is sell
food and just sell. That would be something that people would spend
money on, and would keep spending money.

Do u have anything more specific? Can't quite tell what u're on about XD

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Re: Admin shop discussion

Post by Kevo235 on 10/5/2012, 11:19 pm

Hah, typical American policy. Try to 'spend' your way out of a depression. Tell me, how's that going for the USA right now. I bet they're just rolling in cash.

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Re: Admin shop discussion

Post by mickdude2 on 10/7/2012, 11:18 am

I mean there has to be more money flow between players. Right now people just hoard their money.

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Re: Admin shop discussion

Post by Linkinparkey on 10/7/2012, 2:24 pm

mickdude2 wrote:I mean there has to be more money flow between players. Right now people just hoard their money.

I agree to that.... But how do we make people spend their money? Cause I really doubt they will unless u force them to by threatening with banning them or confiscading their money lol

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Re: Admin shop discussion

Post by lordgonk on 10/7/2012, 3:49 pm

A way to fix a problem with rolling in cash through tool kits could be a tool kit fee. For example, I want an iron kit, spawning the kit will give me the tools I want and remove a certain amount of money from my cash pile. The price could be the equivalent of buying that much iron with maybe even a slight mark-up. We need to develop more independence. You get your own iron and sticks or pay more to take from an endless supply. Same would work for any other kits, guests should start with only enough to pay for a wood kit or two.

Also, a dynamic admin shop would be great. A plug-in could exist (if not somebody with experience could make one). It would take the buy and sell numbers to represent supply and demand and change the price correspondingly.

Sure, both of these things would come with new plug-ins that may not even exist, but I believe these additions would fix all of our economic problems.

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